Hey guys,
I was toying around with possible talent trees for my mage with IGNs talent generator ( http://wowvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Talents.View ). I'm level 18 so i have some talents under my belt but im starting to wonder if what I'm doing is ..well..good.

I'm focusing on the Fire tree with a little in the Arcane tree. I've had people suggest to me going all out Arcane and then getting either Frost or Fire. What do you guys think?

(BTW, this my template)

Arcane Talents (20 points)

# Arcane Focus - 5/5 points
Reduces the chance that the opponent can resist your arcane spells by 10%.

# Arcane Concentration - 5/5 points
Gives you a 10% chance of entering a Clearcasting state after any damage spell hits a target. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next damage spell by 100%.

# Evocation - 1/1 point
While channeling this spell, your mana regeneration is active and increased by 1500%. Lasts 8 seconds.

# Improved Arcane Explosion - 5/5 points
Reduces the casting time of your Arcane Explosion by 1.5 seconds.

# Improved Counterspell - 2/2 points
Gives your Counterspell a 100% chance to silence the target for 4 seconds.

# Arcane Meditation - 2/5 points
Allows 6% of your Mana regeneration to continue while casting.

Frost Talents (0 points)

# None

Fire Talents (31 points)

# Improved Fireball - 5/5 points
Reduces the casting time of your Fireball by 0.5 seconds.

# Impact - 5/5 points
Gives your fire spells a 10% chance to stun the taget for 2 seconds.

# Flame Throwing - 2/2 points
Increases the range of your fire spells by 6 yards.

# Ignite - 5/5 points
Your critical strikes from fire damage spells cause the target to burn for an additional 40% of your spell's damage over 4 seconds.

# Pyroblast - 1/1 point
Hurls an immense fiery boulder that causes 148 to 195 fire damage and an additional 56 damage over 12 seconds.

# Improved Flamestrike - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your Flamestrike spell by 15%.

# Blast Wave - 1/1 point
A wave of flame radiates outward from the caster, damaging all enemies caught within the blast for 160 to 192 fire damage, and dazing them for 6 seconds.

# Critical Mass - 3/3 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your fire spells by 6%.

# Fire Power - 5/5 points
Increases the damage done by your fire spells by 10%.

# Combustion - 1/1 point
When activated, this spell gives your next fire damage spell a 100% critical strike chance.

This should probably go over to the mage forum. I've already posted three talent builds over there, though I've been working on another one with slightly higher dps than the arcane/fire I currently use.

Moved to mage forum :)

find this a very good guide.

May want to have a look at it.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-mage&t=23&p=1&tmp=1#post23

The more I think about it, the more I feel frost/arcane will be the way to go in the endgame. This pains me greatly, as I'm a fire type guy. But mob hp goes up exponentially, and fire just doesn't keep up in the damage department, so you need the efficiency of frost for normal mobs and the low agro/low resist of arcane for boss mobs. So I worked up a build, but really haven't decided on anything permanently yet. It still needs to be tweaked, maybe some of you frost mages can help me out.

Arcane Talents (16 points)

Improved Arcane Missiles - 5/5 points
Gives you a 100% chance to avoid interruption caused by damage while channeling Arcane Missiles.

Arcane Concentration - 5/5 points
Gives you a 10% chance of entering a Clearcasting state after any damage spell hits a target. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next damage spell by 100%.

Improved Arcane Explosion - 5/5 points
Reduces the casting time of your Arcane Explosion by 1.5 seconds.

Evocation - 1/1 points
While channeling this spell, your mana regeneration is active and increased by 1500%. Lasts 8 seconds.

Frost Talents (35 points)

Improved Frostbolt - 5/5 points
Reduces the casting time of your Frostbolt spell by 0.5 seconds.

Improved Frost Nova - 2/2 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Frost Nova spell by .

Ice Shards - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Frost spells by 100%.

Improved Blizzard - 3/3 points
Adds a chill effect to your Blizzard spell. This effect lowers the target's movement speed to of normal. Lasts 8.50 seconds.

Cold Snap - 1/1 points
When activated, this spell finishes the cooldown on all of your cold spells.

Shatter - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your frost spells against frozen targets by 50%.

Frost Channeling - 3/3 points
Reduces the mana cost of your frost spells by 15%.

Arctic Reach - 2/2 points
Increases the range of your Frostbolt spell and the radius of your Frost Nova and Cone of Cold spells by 20%.

Ice Block - 1/1 points
You become encased in a block of ice, protecting you from all physical attacks and spells for 10 seconds, but during that time you cannot attack, move, or cast spells.

Frostbite - 5/5 points
Gives your chill effects a 15% chance to freeze the target for 5 seconds.

Ice Barrier - 1/1 points
Instantly shields you, absorbing 455 damage. Lasts 1 minute. While the shield holds, spells will not be interrupted.

Improved Cone of Cold - 2/3 points
Increases the damage dealt by your Cone of Cold spell by 25%.

[Edited by Revith at 2:22 PM on 12/6/2004]

Hmm, I see where you're going with this but I'm a huge fire mage as well. I can see where the after effects of the frost tree can help but are you sure the damage of fire spells doesn't add up in the end? If some higher level frost mages can provide some good evidence for frost over fire I wouldn't mind throwing out the 1 gold to redo my talents (but I would hate having to pay 5 gold the next time).

By the way Revith, I like you template but I dont know what imput i can throw in considering I'm a fire mage. Hopefully some Frost mages can help..

I have that 5/5 stun on fireball (goes off often)

the 2/2 extended range and 2/5 cooldown on that AOE fireblast.

Its been really effective so far. I tested myself in PVP yesterday....the funny part was that 2/2 range and the 10% to stun kicked tail.  I had so much range that the warlocks of alliance or even rangers had to close the gap to nail me.  Besides that the stun went off often enough to where I saw them get messed up cause if it goes off plan on 2-3 fireballs from me. I was hitting this level 29 paladin for about 90-150 a shot.

I love it so far....sidetrack but this is great about mages...I hid behind the Cow Warriors...and they charged in...I hid inside them as I aoe nuked...aoe nova.....then aoe blizzard ....was nasty...=)

Also blinking into the middle of a alliance group and AOE freezing them was great =)

[B]TheYoYo wrote:[/b]

Hmm, I see where you're going with this but I'm a huge fire mage as
well. I can see where the after effects of the frost tree can help but
are you sure the damage of fire spells doesn't add up in the end? If
some higher level frost mages can provide some good evidence for frost
over fire I wouldn't mind throwing out the 1 gold to redo my talents
(but I would hate having to pay 5 gold the next time).

By the way Revith, I like you template but I dont know what imput i
can throw in considering I'm a fire mage. Hopefully some Frost mages
can help..

Sorry, I probably should have explained my build a little better.
First, let me give you an idea of the whys behind it, then I'll break
it out talent by talent. First off, its a much more efficient build.
Its main spell, frostbolt, is more efficient than fireball, fireblast,
and arcane missiles. Scorch is still more efficient, but I find that
too low damage to be a staple spell. This is all from my calculations
in the damage per mana calculation post about 8 posts down. This also
isn't factoring in the frostbite (15% chance to freeze), shatter (50% chance to crit on frozen enemies), and ice shards (increases crit damage bonus by 100%), which makes a huge difference.
As for the arcane side of it, for major bosses I wanted something low agro and hard to resist, hence the 5 levels of focus and first level of subtlety, that one being the most effective at 20% agro reduction compared to the other two levels 10% each.

So now to the frost buld:
Arcane Talents (18 points)

# Arcane Focus - 5/5 points
Reduces the chance that the opponent can resist your arcane spells by 10%.

This is for higher level bosses in instances and on raids, who are normally high enough level that they're innately resistant, so its nice to have a spell that is less resistant to use on them.

# Arcane Concentration - 5/5 points
Gives you a 10% chance of entering a Clearcasting state after any
damage spell hits a target. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana
cost of your next damage spell by 100%.

This is a great talent. Even without paying attention it does great things to saving you mana, but after you see/hear it go off, you can cast something high casting cost like arcane missiles after it for free.

# Improved Arcane Explosion - 5/5 points
Reduces the casting time of your Arcane Explosion by 1.5 seconds.

Absolutely essential for AEing. I use it all the time, making it instacast is great for any time mobs are on you and you need to ae.

# Evocation - 1/1 point
While channeling this spell, your mana regeneration is active and
increased by 1500%. Lasts 8 seconds.

Refills your mana bar. Great for long boss battles, especially endurance ones like in Uldaman.

# Improved Counterspell - 2/2 points
Gives your Counterspell a 100% chance to silence the target for 4 seconds.

Very important if you want to PvP. Not very critical if you're just concerned with PvE

Frost Talents (33 points)

# Improved Frostbolt - 5/5 points
Reduces the casting time of your Frostbolt spell by 0.5 seconds.

Frostbolt is your staple spell, so cutting down its cast time is key.

# Ice Shards - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Frost spells by 100%.

An essential part of the shards/shatter/frostbite combo.

# Improved Frost Nova - 2/2 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Frost Nova spell by ?.

Not bad in and of itself, but needed to get shatter.

# Cold Snap - 1/1 point
When activated, this spell finishes the cooldown on all of your cold spells.

Excellent for emergencies and required for frost channeling.

# Improved Blizzard - 3/3 points
Adds a chill effect to your Blizzard spell. This effect lowers the
target's movement speed to ? of normal. Lasts 8.50 seconds.

Great for mass pvp, or for aeing of any type.

# Arctic Reach - 2/2 points
Increases the range of your Frostbolt spell and the radius of your
Frost Nova and Cone of Cold spells by 20%.

Frost spells already have a short enough reach that this is absolutely necessary.

# Frost Channeling - 3/3 points
Reduces the mana cost of your frost spells by 15%.

Cheaper spells. Improves on an already efficient line of spells, making them even better.

# Shatter - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your frost spells against
frozen targets by 50%.

Part of the essential frost line combo.

# Ice Block - 1/1 point
You become encased in a block of ice, protecting you from all physical
attacks and spells for 10 seconds, but during that time you cannot
attack, move, or cast spells.

Needed for Ice Barrier. Not bad in emergencies.

# Frostbite - 5/5 points
Gives your chill effects a 15% chance to freeze the target for 5 seconds.

Last part of a brutal freeze/crit talent combo.

# Ice Barrier - 1/1 point
Instantly shields you, absorbing 455 damage. Lasts 1 minute. While the
shield holds, spells will not be interrupted.

Saves your life in emergencies. You're a mage. You need saving, often.

Fire Talents (0 points)

# None

First off I noticed you alterted your build a bit (it was 16 Arcane, 35 Frost before)

I can see where you're going with the freeze combo and I can see it working well together. My only question is would you suggest I switch my tree? I'm only level 20 on my mage and I think it would be better to decide now. But take into account I'm not asking you to decide for me (incase you interpret it the wrong way), just your advice. I'm just casually playing as of now with some alts but near end game I will focusing on PvP hevaily (I play on a PvP server). Also, do you believe your build to be the best choice for the frost tree.

This is my tree right now at level 20.

Arcane Talents (1 point)

# Arcane Subtlety - 1/3 point
Reduces the threat generated by your offensive arcane spells by 20%.

Frost Talents (0 points)

# None

Fire Talents (10 points)

# Improved Fireball - 5/5 points
Reduces the casting time of your Fireball by 0.5 seconds.

# Impact - 3/5 points
Gives your fire spells a 6% chance to stun the taget for 2 seconds.

# Flame Throwing - 2/2 points
Increases the range of your fire spells by 6 yards.

After I decided on that frost build and got ingame and was staring at the mage trainer, I realized that I didn't have enough points to get the arcane I felt necessary to do instances even at level 46, and still get enough of the frost tree to make the combo functional, so I decided to try a fire ae build to 60 instead, and see how things were at 60. So now I've gone for a combust/blast wave/arcane explosion ae combo (don't have combust yet, just 2 levels in critical mass) that actually worked very well in zul'ferrak and sunken temple last night.
Fire works very well up until mid-40s, and then some people say it starts losing its effectiveness. I'm definately noticing that on higher mobs the resist rate on fire versus arcane missile with full arcane focus is making me use missile on any named. But the AE is still working great, and thats a very critical role for me in instances.
So I'd suggest trying what you want up until 50 or 60, seeing how effective you find it, and then re-speccing for the endgame. My arcane/fire build has treated me very well up until now, but I didn't think it packed the punch in AE to do what I needed for an event like Blye in Zul'ferrak, so I changed.

Arcane Missiles are less resident to any mob. As most mobs are resident to fire and ice spells in higher levels above you. Anything above 3 levels of you is going to resist your spells of fire or ice. AE damage is only good if you are in a group with non-elite mobs and need to knock them down. Otherwise is useless and should not be attempted as all the mob will do is take a hit and just bum rush your butt to take a dirt nap. As a AE dmg draws alot of aggro and only has certain times when it should and should not be used

[B]plice wrote:[/b]

Arcane Missiles are less resident to any mob. As most mobs are resident to fire and ice spells in higher levels above you. Anything above 3 levels of you is going to resist your spells of fire or ice. AE damage is only good if you are in a group with non-elite mobs and need to knock them down. Otherwise is useless and should not be attempted as all the mob will do is take a hit and just bum rush your butt to take a dirt nap. As a AE dmg draws alot of aggro and only has certain times when it should and should not be used

Oh, AE is definately situational, but there are many instances in which it can be used. In the last two days, I've used it at the Blye event in Zul'Ferrak, on maggots and whelps in Sunken Temple, and in the Avatar of Hakkar event in Sunken Temple. AEing was definately essential to the success of all of these for our group, and with 1 point in subtlety, I usually did not draw the agro of the elite mobs in the group off of our warrior. A usuall pull would be 1-2 elites and 4-6 non-elite, the warrior would taunt the two elite, I'd wait a few seconds, then step in with flamestrike, blast wave, and a bunch of arcane explosions, and while I obviously drew the agro of the non-elites who weren't taunted, I didn't draw the agro of the elites.
As for anything above three levels higher than you, even arcane missiles are of significantly reduced effectiveness, even with 5 levels of Arcane Focus. Your base damage is at least halved on them, when it isn't completely resisted. But it is something, and thats the reason to keep missiles around and get some Focus talents. Going up against the Shade of Eranikus (level 55 to my 47) was pretty pointless though. No amount of focus can help that, and in the entire fight I did maybe 500 damage. Levels just make too much of a difference.

The groups i was in were handling 3-4 elites and 6-7 regular mobs at a time.

You sound like that your AE damage spells arent packing a bunch. In which they are never really suppose to from my understanding.

The mobs I was AEing were 2-3 levels above me, and the elites 3-4 levels. How high compared to you were the mobs your group was fighting?

same

Hmm. Well, we probably could have taken that (never once neared a wipe) but that was what the pulls were. *shrug* Once you start AEing, the number of extra mobs becomes a matter of the cleric keeping you alive, thats about it.

[Edited by Revith at 3:00 AM on 12/9/2004]

Here's a new build for ya:

Arcane Talents (18 points)

Your standard full frost mage, except that I took the 3 points from frost channeling (15% less mana spent on frost spells) and gave them to improved Cone of Cold (35% more damage on Cone of Cold).
A bit less mana efficent, unless you use cone of cold alot, then it's actually more efficent, and better in PvP I guess. Thoughts?

there is no evocation!!!!!!!!!!! i cant find it lol its either called something else or the patch removed it, its a spell well i found that out from the trainer. lvl 20 spell, and i do not see that in the talents at all.

it's a trainable spell now

I dont know what i should do for the talents, instead of putting your one point in evocation which is no longer there.. where did u put it?